Ontario Hansard - OPP officers' orders

Mr. John Tory (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Premier. The media reports from this weekend in Caledonia suggested that an OPP officer stated off camera that they had been instructed not to engage in violent commotion or activity between those occupying the land, other external groups such as the media, local community members and Ontarians travelling through the area. Can you confirm whether or not this is the case, and will you also confirm that no element whatsoever of that instruction has come from your government with respect to how they carry out their duties to protect the public?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty (Premier, Minister of Research and Innovation): I can in fact confirm that. I am not aware of what instructions any particular police officer may have been referencing, but certainly we have not provided instructions of any kind to the Ontario Provincial Police vis-à-vis Caledonia.

May I take this opportunity as well to extend my sympathies to all those affected by last Friday's violence? I know I will be joined -- I say this with confidence -- by every single member of this Legislature when we condemn those activities of those individuals. I can say as well that we have been negotiating in goodwill and in good faith, but this now makes it very difficult for us to have a basis for continuing discussions, and I will speak to that further in the supplementaries.

Mr. Tory: Again to the Premier, Caledonia has undergone more than 100 days of hardship for a conflict you and your government were informed about more than a year ago. Last week and this weekend, the incidents that you spoke about were things that I think shocked people. They saw a newspaper reporter for the Kitchener Record assaulted and robbed as someone held him by the throat and other people rifled through his vehicle. They saw an elderly man having a heart attack after he and his wife had their car stomped on and surrounded. They saw the two CH cameramen, of course, who were assaulted by a group of individuals.

Last week in the House, the Minister of Community Safety referred to an understanding that existed about where the police go or don't go. Who is that understanding with, and what involvement has anyone from your government had, including any public servants, in terms of discussions of that kind of understanding? Who is it with, and who has been involved in discussing it? Has anyone in your government -- public servant, politician or otherwise -- been involved in discussing such an understanding?

Hon. Mr. McGuinty: Again, and I'm not sure I could have been any more clear in my answer to the first question, we have not provided any kind of instruction to the Ontario Provincial Police.

Let me say that we have been negotiating with the First Nations community in good faith. We have established an expedited land claims settlement process. We've invited to that table the federal government. We are working as quickly as we can. We have put in place a moratorium on the development lands in question. But I can say that a condition of our being at the table was that public safety would not be compromised. In fact, last Friday it was without a doubt compromised.

I've asked the minister responsible for aboriginal issues to speak with the leadership of the First Nations community involved to relay that we are no longer prepared to continue negotiations until two important conditions are met: First of all, the barricades must come down, and they must stay down; and secondly, we are asking the leadership to co-operate in any way with the Ontario Provincial Police so that they might apprehend the individuals involved.

Mr. Tory: I'd like to ask the Premier two questions that arise in part out of that answer. The first question would be, now that the situation is the way it is, might you commit to holding at the appropriate time an independent investigation into what has gone on here so that all of these different understandings and instructions that seem to be floating around from somewhere and all the things that are going on that involve a breakdown of the rule of law can be independently investigated? I think people would take some comfort from knowing that at the appropriate time this will be looked into by someone independent so we'll all know how it went on, why it happened and that it won't happen again.

Secondly, what time limit have you placed on this business of saying that the barricades must come down and that the rule of law must be respected? When have you said this is going to come into effect? It's a new statement on your part. I commend you for it. When, specifically, is it going to come into effect?

Hon. Mr. McGuinty: Our government just conveyed this information to the First Nations leadership involved. The leader of the official opposition may know that this morning we issued a joint release, together with the federal government, demanding that the barricades in fact come down. Beyond that, we've also requested that the First Nations leadership co-operate with the Ontario Provincial Police when it comes to the apprehension of the individuals involved.

I can say -- and I know I say this on behalf of the people of Ontario -- that we will not brook any disagreement with respect to which law applies when it comes to alleged criminal activity. There is one law for all Ontarians and all Canadians when it comes to criminal misconduct, and that's the criminal law of Canada. That's why we're asking the leadership involved in the First Nations community to co-operate with the Ontario Provincial Police in order to ensure that the individuals involved might be apprehended.

The Speaker (Hon. Michael A. Brown): New question.

Mr. Tory: I could ask a very simple question: Where have you been? You said in your answer a moment ago that when the moratorium was placed on the development of the land and when the negotiations were set up and one of the barricades was brought down -- I believe I'm right that you said a condition of that deal was that public safety would be respected and the law would be respected. I think you -- your government -- said that some time ago. Now you're here today saying in no uncertain terms, "Take it from me. We're going to make sure that is the case."

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So I think it is reasonable to ask you, when? You entered into a deal three or four weeks ago, at which time the first barricade did come down, but all of the incidents we're talking about have happened since then. So I'm asking you again, by what date are you expecting that people will comply with these conditions that were in the old deal so that we can know that the rule of law is going to be restored in Caledonia? When is it going to happen?

Hon. Mr. McGuinty: The leader of the official opposition may know that we have been in discussion with the federal government in these matters. That's why we issued the joint release today. We said that it's a matter that is very urgent. We are not going to engage in brinksmanship. We are going to continue to act responsibly. We will do so in co-operation with the federal government, and we've deemed the matter urgent.

Mr. Tory: One of the things that has not yet happened is a visit by you to Caledonia, simply to meet with people face to face and really see what's going on there and listen to some of the people who live there and who I think have a combination of frustration, heartache and anger over a lot of these kinds of things.

I would ask you, if it isn't convenient or appropriate for you to go there, would you as premier of this province consider -- as part of the dialogue that has to go on and the personal conveyance of the message you've talked about today to all of the stakeholders involved -- calling these people in, showing this kind of leadership, to have them into your office to deal with them directly in conveying the message you have conveyed to this House today and make sure there is no misunderstanding, I would suggest with a date by which this is going to happen? Will you do that?

Hon. Mr. McGuinty: I think the leader of the official opposition knows that Mr. Levac, a member of the government, is on a community liaison table. He may know as well that Minister Cordiano has had an opportunity to meet with the community. But he will not know that Minister Ramsay met with the First Nations leadership this morning and conveyed this directly. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that we have very good channels of communications with the leadership and with the community and we will keep those open on an ongoing basis.

Mr. Tory: I'm delighted to hear that the minister finally has had a meeting with those individuals. I would suggest to you, respectfully, that there are other people in that community, because I have talked to them, who would welcome the opportunity to have a meeting as well, both to convey some thoughts they have on this matter and to be given the same message that you talked about conveying to the First Nations people, because everyone needs to understand that the rule of law is going to prevail. So I would ask you if you would consider asking the minister to do that.

Secondly, I would ask you one more time, as a constructive means of indicating that people will have their chance to be heard and to be listened to by somebody independent going forward, will you commit to having an independent investigation of this matter, this series of matters, including the land claims process and how we can make it better? Will your government commit to do that as a means of trying to further defuse the tension that exists today in Caledonia? Why won't you agree to that?

Hon. Mr. McGuinty: No, I will not agree to that. I cannot understand how embarking upon yet another process at some point in the future will help us address the matter that is before us today.

In addition to the ongoing communication efforts and the table that has been put in place to expedite the land settlement claims process, we have also helped the local community with a $500,000 emergency assistance package for local businesses. We have delivered $50,000 to the local council to hire additional communications support. We've delivered $50,000 to help develop a marketing and economic recovery plan. Last week, we delivered a further $160,000 to local council to implement that plan. We are presently in discussions with the developer involved to see if we might find a way to offset some of their costs. We are working as hard as we can, bringing as much as we can possibly bear, to ensure that we resolve this matter as quickly as possible.